Good bye 4.2

[Gerrit Loubser]

Grant, I have agonized a little over whether I should respond or not, seeing that I am now also one of "them" , but in the end I decided to go ahead, because I would have posted this even if I still had my Troll. This is obviously a Nissan forum, so some bias is to be expected, but I am going to challenge some of what you posted (as I have also done under similar circumstances on more than one occasion on the LCCSA forum, I might add).

I have spent many weekend with the LC Club. Great bunch of guys but not much knowledge whenit comes to 4x4's. They can only talk about there trucks. Most of the time I supprised them all .

I am not sure whether you are referring to the LCCSA? As in any group of people there would be the less knowledgeable ones, the beginners, the clowns, the idiots, etc. There definitely are very experienced and knowledgeable members there as well, guys that have a broad knowledge of off-highway motoring and the vehicles. I do not believe that it is fair to generalise.

Cruisers need front and rear diff locks to go where we do.

The Y60 and Y61 Patrols are very, very competent offroaders, but I can not agree with your statement. Any difference in performance between, say a Y60 Patrol (without rear diff lock) and an 80 Series Land Cruiser (without axle diff locks) will be miniscule as far as the vehicle itself is concerned. Any noticeable difference would be down to the different skill levels of the drivers. There simply is nothing that significant to differentiate the two vehicle layouts.

Makano motors is a LC specialist gaurage and mad you must see how they line up there on Mondays after the trail. Gearbox and diff problems. Had my clutch fitted at Makano and Johan (owner) commented that they the Trolls GB and TB are at least 25 kg's heavier .

The Patrols and the Cruisers each have their relative advantages and disadvantages as far as durability is concerned. I absolutely agree that the Patrol's driveline is super heavy duty; compared to my Y61 Patrol, the 80 Series' differentials and axle housings actually look quite dainty . The durability of the Y60/Y61 Patrol's driveline is legendary, even in severe competition work.

Differential failures (often ring & pinion) are not unknown on the 80 and especially 100 Series Land Cruisers. As mentioned, these components are typically smaller than those in the Y60/Y61, but the 4.2 turbo-diesel and 4.5 fuel injected petrol motors fitted to these vehicles (80 GXL, 80 VX, 105 a.k.a. 100 GX) generates quite a bit more torque than the TB45E or TD42 motors in the Patrols (obviously the TB48DE is another kettle of fish ). In addition the Cruisers have significantly lower low range gearing, which means that the torque at the differentials would be much higher than in the case of the Patrols. Obviously the beefier bits in the Patrol would be better able to withstand this, but at some point one needs to draw the line when beefing things up (bigger crown wheels and and other heavier rotating driveline bits lead to increased driveline losses and dulled acceleration). The increased power and lower low range obviously has benefits as well. There are less powerful versions of the above mentioned Cruisers (e.g. those running the 4.2 NA diesel motor), but these ones are not known to suffer from the differential issues.

As far as the manual transmissions are concerned, I think the one rotten apple in the Crusier lunch box is the R150F and R151F gearboxes that are used in the current diesel engined 79 Series pick-ups and the 76 Series wagon (as well as the Hilux and Fortuner and the diesel engined versions of the older 105 Series). There have been a number of disappointing failures involving this gearbox, but the H150F and H151F used in the petrol engined versions of the 79 (and in the older 80 Series and petrol engined 105 Series) are definitely at least the equal of the manual Patrol gearboxes and are actually probably even more durable.

And do we can continue making lists:

• The Y60 and especially the heavier Y61 Patrols are known to be afflicted by fatigue issues of the rear coil spring mountings on the chassis if they are used extensively under heavily laden overlanding conditions.
• Some Land Crusier 100 Series vehicles with the turbo diesel motor are afflicted with durability issues where the front torsion bar springs attach to the lower A-arms under similar conditions.
• Nissan have a skeleton in the cupboard as far as the ZD30 motor is concerned...
• ...as does Toyota with the 1KZ-TE (to some extent)
• etc

I am trying to indicate that these things happen even in the best families. Cars are designed, developed and built by humans (OK in some cases bits are built by automated manufacturing systems, but those are also the products of human ingenuity), so there is always the possibility of human error. Fortunately the Japanese have this process down to quite a fine art and the success stories are way more than the failures, regardless of whether we are talking about Nissan, Toyota, Mitsubishi, Honda, etc. I find it quite pointless to try to make a case for the one brand being totally superior to the other in all respects.

[ricster]

I see both Grants and Gerrits points .... Gerrits points are very factual, and I think Grant a little more humorous..... Has anyone ever said to a cruiser.... or any Toyota driver. " Cruisers need front and rear diff locks to go where we do".... .... you will see the cheeks puff up.... the vein in the temple start to throb.... and the cheeks will go blood red..... BUT again like you said the driver makes a HUGE difference. I have seen grant go up obstacles (with limited slip diff not working) where I would not even try..... with my difflock.

First off, I just want to be clear here. I'm not attacking anyone or everyone, but unfortunately there seems to be a lot of guys that fall into this catagory)

I like the Cruisers. I personally would love to get my hands on an 80 series. Before I bought the Patrol, i was looking at both 80 series and Y61's. Both are fantastic vehicles. My first 4 cars were Toyotas, from the Corrola 1.8 SE 2 door hatchback to believe it or not a.... a baby blue Cressida......

So the little dig at the red faced, puffy cheek Cruiser guys ( Excluding Gerrit.... cause he will always be a Patrol man... )is sometimes quite funny to see. I must just mention my views on what I've seen/noticed at events, or even around town. The Cruiser guys are generally not very friendly. You make the effort to greet when passing them.... you get the racehorse with blinkers on.... they don't even look at you. When one generally starts a conversation about Patrols and Cruisers, they are on the defensive, and don't want to hear anything about any other vehicle other than a Cruiser/Toyota. Why????... Patrols are the underdogs here in SA... Cruisers are, in South African eyes, seen as the best. So why do some of the guys loose the plot and not look at other things that are happening around them and differences of opinions..... I like to listen to everyone.... Cruisers, Patrols, Pajero's, Landy, Isuzu, even a Tata... that way one expands ones general knowledge. When I finally bought my Patrol, it was purely by listening to all the info and mulling it over for a while, for me to make a decision that the 4.2 turbo diesel Patrol was what I wanted out of everything out there.

I also don't believe that there is that bigger difference between the two ( Patrols vs Cruisers )...... My Patrol also gave me %$@# when I first bought it.... but that was not the vehicles fault, just bad maintenance. It could have happened to ANY vehicle.... but I believe that ( and it happened to me ) some Toyota enthusiasts will still give you a kick when you ( your vehicle ) is down and broken....." Ja jy wil daai @%#$&$ Nissan koop".....

But I love my Iron Maiden...... and some day will maybe buy a 80 series Cruiser.... for comparison purposes

This is just my opinion, and not meant to offend anyone ( just in case..... but us Nissan chaps , I must say have some of the BEST CAMARADERIE I have ever witnessed) WE have set the benchmark.... lets keep it there !!

[Alex Roux]

I agree, I agree, I agree....

As I said before
I respect the LC and I admire the Rubi, but my Trol will always remain my first love...

And if I ever was to drive an LC, it would be the 80 series. Its got coils at the back and a fixed front axe, just like my Trol!
Pity we can never compare like for like, i.e. same driver (or equally capable drivers in their respective vehicles), same conditions etc.

Most of the time that I do feel like puffing up and making statements about how great Patrols are, it is only due to the arrogance of some Yota people (and I stress, only some of them). Not all people are good, but there are good people to be found every where.

One thing I do know though, is that 25 out of the 30 vehicles in the Outback challenge are Trolls. And this is supposed to be the toughest 4x4 competition in the world. Surely that must mean something? Or is it only due to better marketing and after market service of Nissan in Australia, i.e. the same excuses we use for the limited numbers of Patrols in SA?

[dieselfan]

Gerrit as always an objective answer. I must reiterate this isn't an anti Toyota thread. But I've yet to meet a Toyota salesman who doesn't trash talk. and not just trash talk but actually blatant lies.

as the clip I posted shows patrols are very respected in Australia despite what Toyota fans say.

I am in the market for an 80 due the diesel motor as I can't find a patrol.

I just get nausea from the bloody salesman. the resale value on them it's just ludicrous.

here's a.prime example. Both 2009, lc has 150k km disco 3 90k. offer on disco is 250 and lc is 300. yet it's a simple bakkie with no features let alone safety features. For sixty more I can have a brand new lc.

There's no way Toyota vehicles are that much better. Did anyone watch my g wagon clip?

[KOOS BEST]

Dieselfan, koop nou daai D3 , finish and klaar

[David]

.... they don't even look at you. When one generally starts a conversation about Patrols and Cruisers, they are on the defensive, and don't want to hear anything about any other vehicle other than a Cruiser/Toyota.....

So true - however the only exception I know is Johan Tyres from First Alignment who drives a Cruiser himself. Last time I was there with the Patrol he called all the Cruiser 'manne' to come have a look at the Patrol to see how big a diff should be That was however just after he stripped his...

[Grant]

Gerrit

Great post and I appreciate your factual answer. Hope to see you on some our events where we get all the clubs together. Pound for pound I will always back my Troll , as I have spent many outing with the LC club . As I said a “great bunch” of guys , and at anytime I would join them at any one of their GTG’s .

My patrol is my vice and SWAMBO , confirms this every day. Sad to here you have decided to jump ship , but hope you have many trouble free motoring km’ in your new steed.

A lot of truth is said in jest. Stirring the pot and you see the passion come out .


Have to agree with Cedric, what options do we Troll lover have when our steeds eventually die. I want a Gizmo free, simple and old school diesel engine. Options now available are LC's, Defenders (real Land Rovers ) and Wranglers.

[Gerrit Loubser]

Cool Grant.

Your Y60 is an awesome machine and it is easy to understand why you are passionate.

There is nothing wrong with backing one's vehicle; everyone obviously drives what they drive, because their analysis indicated it to be the best for them. For some reason people also often tend to form a strange bond with their vehicles. I am still sad over getting rid of Imvubu, but I am slowly building a relationship with the 80 .

I must also say that I have always enjoyed the company of the Patrol guys tremendously and found them to be a great bunch of guys, by and large, whether on the trail or on the forum or wherever. Keep it up guys and never become like those myopic individuals referred to in other posts on this thread .

[ricster]

Gerrit .... you will always be a Patrol man !!!!

[Tinus lotz]

My two cents are that I am proud to be part of a form with people that can think with open minds ect . Also nice to have the imput of guys with major tech knowhow ect
I love toyotas stukkend btw I have 2 any jap car is IMHO good .
The thing in S A is if hasint got a toyota bage it is rubbish I don't understand
When comparing cars we must remember that the LC has a lot of models like the non flexing 79 and pick up but the 105 and 80 series are diff all to gether !!!
To get back to topic I have been longing a 4.2 pickup for a long time so if they stop making it I must buy one soon !!!!!!don't think I will buy a 3 liter even if its the new specc