Patrol/Safari bits for Sani

User avatar
davidvdm
Patrolman
Patrolman
Posts: 627
Joined: 13 Sep 2011 15:47
Full Name: David vd Merwe
Nickname: David - Hillbilly
Home Town: West Coast
Current 4x4: 1997 2.7TD Nissan Sani Mk3 4x4 SFA (SAFANI)
Home Language: English/Afrikaans
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 48 times
Contact:

Re: Patrol/Safari bits for Sani

Post by davidvdm »

Thanks Peter.

I spoke to Reenen last night to get some info and advise. He tells me the Safari did not have a proportioning/load sensing valve. So that clear's that up. I did not check one or two things in my process, one of them being to get someone to jump on the brake and see if the brakes do actually push out on the other side. I believe I have good unrestricted flow on both sides when I did the bleeding, but everything was already back together, so I could not see the brakes actually working.

As a side note. Technically, there is no such thing a "proportioning" valve. It's nothing more than a pressure restricting valve. Drum brakes are very efficient, and if I remember correctly, are fully locked at something like 300PSI. A "bias" valve or "proportioning" valve simply limits the pressure to the drums. On disk brake systems, this hardly ever needed. If these big ass drums are going to be a problem in this respect, I would rather investigate disks on the rear before going down the road of limiting valves to balance the brakes.

But first of all, let me see if I can sort out the one wheel braking, and see how it works after that for me. These shoes are in good condition. Lots of material left on both sides. I checked the radius of the shoes to the drums, and they are perfect. It looks like it is running the original Nissan slave units from 1980, or at least the previous owner had them replaced with genuine Nissan parts. I have no idea what the mileage was on the Safari, but it is possible that those are also the original shoes. On the Sani, I have once replaced the brake shoes in 360k KM. So if this Safari had less than 200k on the clock, it could well be the originals. Not bad for 40 years, lol. It does look like the pistons and seals in the slaves have been replaced at some stage. They are nicely painted red with very little paint scoring on them. They look very new.

So lets see when I can get back under the car this week and do some investigating into the problem.
David - Bfreesani
1997 Nissan Sani MK3 2.7TD - Hillbilly (SAFANI)
MQ C200 SFA
MQ H260 LSD Rear
MQ Transfer as second low range
5" Lift
33"x12.5x15" tires on 8.5J rims - Want 35's
DIY rock sliders
DIY Snorkel
Madman EMS
User avatar
Peter Connan
Moderator
Posts: 6011
Joined: 10 Sep 2010 07:21
Full Name: Peter Connan
Nickname: Piet
Home Town: Kempton Park
Current 4x4: 1996 Patrol 4.5SGL
Home Language: Afrikaans
Location: Kempton Park
Has thanked: 1067 times
Been thanked: 985 times

Re: Patrol/Safari bits for Sani

Post by Peter Connan »

Firstly, why do you feel that the fact that proportioning valves limit pressure means that they are not proportioning valves? What else would you limit to control proportioning? Surely pressure is EXACTLY what you want to proportion?

I don't agree that proportioning valves are not necessary on all-disc-brake vehicles, and I believe the fact that all the Y60 and Y61 wagons (which almost all have discs all round) have proportioning valves means that Nissan also don't agree.

Most vehicles are lighter on the rear axle than the front. And under heavy braking, a lot more weight transfers to the front axle. But when loading a vehicle, we typically put most of the load on the rear axle. Which changes the weight distribution. Therefore, to get the best out of your brakes, a load-sensitive proportioning valve of some sort is necessary.

By the way, even racing cars use a brake proportioning system based on pressure control. In the fancier ones, this can be adjusted on the fly by the driver.
Typically it works by having separate master cylinders for the front and rear brakes, with a mechanism built into the pedal allowing adjustment of how much force goes to which cylinder.
Mag ons ons kenniskry met lekkerkry aanhoukry.
User avatar
davidvdm
Patrolman
Patrolman
Posts: 627
Joined: 13 Sep 2011 15:47
Full Name: David vd Merwe
Nickname: David - Hillbilly
Home Town: West Coast
Current 4x4: 1997 2.7TD Nissan Sani Mk3 4x4 SFA (SAFANI)
Home Language: English/Afrikaans
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 48 times
Contact:

Re: Patrol/Safari bits for Sani

Post by davidvdm »

Peter, Yes, you are totally correct. Only after I read my response again, I realized that to limit or adjust it any way, means you are proportioning it to the front. Even in our case where the front will always be a constant. Thanks for that. I sometimes get too smart for my own good.

Anyhow, so I messed around a bit with the brakes today. I started by adjusting the "auto adjustment" ratchet screws so that I should have less brakes on the left, and more on the right so as to counter my problem. I jacked the car up so I could watch the wheels under braking, trusting that the LSD would keep the wheels turning together (which it did). In just a few application of the brakes, my problem was back. I assume the auto adjustment set the brakes to optimal clearance again. The left would lock up, and overpower the LSD. A little more pressure on the pedal, and I could kill the motor fairly easily, so both left and right are braking, just much less on the right. I now assume the problem is not adjustment, but the mechanical system, the slave, or a mechanical friction problem on one of the sides. I have learned that usually problems on brakes, is not on the side that it seems to be. In my case, the extra grippy brakes on the left, could rather be a major loss of braking on the left.

Now I have embarked on a lengthy process of elimination. I started off by comparing the radias of the shoes to each of the drums to make sure they were the same left to right. I then put the braking system back together and swapped the drums to the other side after slightly "cleaning" the surfaces of the shoes again to aid bedding again. I ran it again for a fair period of time in low range, punching it now and again to see if one of the wheels would lock up. I seem to have even braking now, right up to the point of killing the engine. Temperature of the drums are also identical.

I must however assume that the shoes have not bedded fully yet, and I could still find the problem returning again if it is in fact not just the drums. Time will tell. I did take it for a little drive around our complex, and could not get the rear to lock up, even under some hectic braking. Only once did it do so, when I had one wheel on the gravel, on the edge of the road.

Hoping to embark on the next phase of the Sani project, so I may only get my braking problem results much later.

Peter, I do have a question though. On the Sani, there is device midway down the chassis in the braking pipe line. I was told that this device measures the angle of the vehicle and controls the pressure accordingly to the rear brakes. Is this possible, and if so, how sensitive is it, and I suppose it could be out of calibration if your vehicle is no longer standing level. Do you know anything about it?
David - Bfreesani
1997 Nissan Sani MK3 2.7TD - Hillbilly (SAFANI)
MQ C200 SFA
MQ H260 LSD Rear
MQ Transfer as second low range
5" Lift
33"x12.5x15" tires on 8.5J rims - Want 35's
DIY rock sliders
DIY Snorkel
Madman EMS
User avatar
Peter Connan
Moderator
Posts: 6011
Joined: 10 Sep 2010 07:21
Full Name: Peter Connan
Nickname: Piet
Home Town: Kempton Park
Current 4x4: 1996 Patrol 4.5SGL
Home Language: Afrikaans
Location: Kempton Park
Has thanked: 1067 times
Been thanked: 985 times

Re: Patrol/Safari bits for Sani

Post by Peter Connan »

David, unfortunately I haven't spent any time under Sanis.

In concept, it is possible. I would assume it would be possible to make it just as accurate as the system in the Y60/Y61, but that doesn't mean that the setup in the Sani is.
I also think it could be affected more by momentum, again, this depends on how it works, and having not seen one, I just don't know.

Changing the relative height front to rear would definitely affect such a system, but I also believe it would be possible to "recalibrate" it.
Mag ons ons kenniskry met lekkerkry aanhoukry.
User avatar
davidvdm
Patrolman
Patrolman
Posts: 627
Joined: 13 Sep 2011 15:47
Full Name: David vd Merwe
Nickname: David - Hillbilly
Home Town: West Coast
Current 4x4: 1997 2.7TD Nissan Sani Mk3 4x4 SFA (SAFANI)
Home Language: English/Afrikaans
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 48 times
Contact:

Re: Patrol/Safari bits for Sani

Post by davidvdm »

My friend Google has one or two articles of it. It is an alternative to that spring type that measures the distance between axle and frame. I can't find out exactly how it works, besides that it's not a serviceable item like the spring type, and can only be replaced if faulty. Out of interest, $320 plus postage and duties (OUCH). I can not find a picture online of the thing, besides this schematic and an accidental shot in one of my pics.
0900c1528004f880.gif
0900c1528004f880.gif (57.83 KiB) Viewed 6448 times
060920111058a.jpg
060920111058a.jpg (215.09 KiB) Viewed 6448 times
David - Bfreesani
1997 Nissan Sani MK3 2.7TD - Hillbilly (SAFANI)
MQ C200 SFA
MQ H260 LSD Rear
MQ Transfer as second low range
5" Lift
33"x12.5x15" tires on 8.5J rims - Want 35's
DIY rock sliders
DIY Snorkel
Madman EMS
User avatar
Peter Connan
Moderator
Posts: 6011
Joined: 10 Sep 2010 07:21
Full Name: Peter Connan
Nickname: Piet
Home Town: Kempton Park
Current 4x4: 1996 Patrol 4.5SGL
Home Language: Afrikaans
Location: Kempton Park
Has thanked: 1067 times
Been thanked: 985 times

Re: Patrol/Safari bits for Sani

Post by Peter Connan »

It looks as if the bracket allows some adjustment in angle, but of course there is no obvious reference on the body to set it up by.

Sorry, not being much help here. But it sort-of sounds like you have probably already solved the problem, although it would probably be a bit "safer" if the front end locked up before the rear (on the basis that a car that plows straight on is less likely to roll than one that over-steers and then slides sideways).

There are a couple of possible ways to gyppo it that might be a lot cheaper and simpler than trying to find disc brakes that can be made to fit:
1) Substitute the proportioning valve from the a Y60 or Y61 (or something else).
2) Have the slave cylinders sleeved down to a smaller size. This will reduce the force on the shoes,
Mag ons ons kenniskry met lekkerkry aanhoukry.
User avatar
davidvdm
Patrolman
Patrolman
Posts: 627
Joined: 13 Sep 2011 15:47
Full Name: David vd Merwe
Nickname: David - Hillbilly
Home Town: West Coast
Current 4x4: 1997 2.7TD Nissan Sani Mk3 4x4 SFA (SAFANI)
Home Language: English/Afrikaans
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 48 times
Contact:

Re: Patrol/Safari bits for Sani

Post by davidvdm »

Well these are all things that have popped up, and not part of the planned SFA conversion. These things will also really be solved once we know how it works in real life. This driving around the block to test, does not imitate real life. Operating temperatures are not reached. The brakes have also hardly been used for months, so I believe a fair amount of settling in also needs to happen. Who knows how compatible the hardbody booster would be with the Safari brakes. Doubt it has ever beed tested, and just part of my "breaking new ground" phase of the build. I knew I would find things that nobody has ever done before.

Thanks for the input
David - Bfreesani
1997 Nissan Sani MK3 2.7TD - Hillbilly (SAFANI)
MQ C200 SFA
MQ H260 LSD Rear
MQ Transfer as second low range
5" Lift
33"x12.5x15" tires on 8.5J rims - Want 35's
DIY rock sliders
DIY Snorkel
Madman EMS
User avatar
davidvdm
Patrolman
Patrolman
Posts: 627
Joined: 13 Sep 2011 15:47
Full Name: David vd Merwe
Nickname: David - Hillbilly
Home Town: West Coast
Current 4x4: 1997 2.7TD Nissan Sani Mk3 4x4 SFA (SAFANI)
Home Language: English/Afrikaans
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 48 times
Contact:

Re: Patrol/Safari bits for Sani

Post by davidvdm »

Today the Sani got it's rear shocks sorted. I kinda tried keeping in mind that the suspension would change later (agian). The chassis side will hopefully not change again. The axle side is bolt on at the moment, juts bolting into the standard Safari pin type shock mount on the leaf spring plate. I went with the OME shock that was donated long time back to the project. I don't remember who the Patrol owner was, but thanks, they work a treat. A bit stiffer than the Safari shocks that that I was running before. So teh OME must be way stiffer as they are at a fair angle compared to the Safari that was virtually straight up.
Fully compressed
Fully compressed
20191016_142412.jpg (4.06 MiB) Viewed 6230 times
Extended
Extended
20191016_133426.jpg (3.08 MiB) Viewed 6230 times
and some more flexi pics for good measure
20191016_142312.jpg
20191016_142312.jpg (7.61 MiB) Viewed 6230 times
20191016_142303.jpg
20191016_142303.jpg (6.83 MiB) Viewed 6230 times
20191016_142331.jpg
20191016_142331.jpg (6.27 MiB) Viewed 6230 times
David - Bfreesani
1997 Nissan Sani MK3 2.7TD - Hillbilly (SAFANI)
MQ C200 SFA
MQ H260 LSD Rear
MQ Transfer as second low range
5" Lift
33"x12.5x15" tires on 8.5J rims - Want 35's
DIY rock sliders
DIY Snorkel
Madman EMS
User avatar
davidvdm
Patrolman
Patrolman
Posts: 627
Joined: 13 Sep 2011 15:47
Full Name: David vd Merwe
Nickname: David - Hillbilly
Home Town: West Coast
Current 4x4: 1997 2.7TD Nissan Sani Mk3 4x4 SFA (SAFANI)
Home Language: English/Afrikaans
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 48 times
Contact:

Re: Patrol/Safari bits for Sani

Post by davidvdm »

I also put the rocksliders back on so that the wife can get into the Snai again without a coke crate. She kinda finds it embarrassing.

Next I thing I need to tackle a fuel tank of sorts. The range on the 5L oil bottle in the engine compartment is slightly bad. In fact, I doubt I'll make to my closest garage. Bashing it around our estate, the fuel consumption looks very bad, although I know the pump timing needs to be set up properly. Anyhow, the fuel tank. I been scratching around a bit at a few scrap yards with a tape measure, and not really fining anything that is going to work straight off. Thought of trying to cut and plastic weld the existing tank, but not so sure how well that is going to work.

Next option is a Fibreglass tank. I see it is widely used in diesel boats. I will be able to make it profile exactly to the floor and between obstacles like cross members. Has anybody done this before. I would really appreciate any advice.
David - Bfreesani
1997 Nissan Sani MK3 2.7TD - Hillbilly (SAFANI)
MQ C200 SFA
MQ H260 LSD Rear
MQ Transfer as second low range
5" Lift
33"x12.5x15" tires on 8.5J rims - Want 35's
DIY rock sliders
DIY Snorkel
Madman EMS
User avatar
davidvdm
Patrolman
Patrolman
Posts: 627
Joined: 13 Sep 2011 15:47
Full Name: David vd Merwe
Nickname: David - Hillbilly
Home Town: West Coast
Current 4x4: 1997 2.7TD Nissan Sani Mk3 4x4 SFA (SAFANI)
Home Language: English/Afrikaans
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 48 times
Contact:

Re: Patrol/Safari bits for Sani

Post by davidvdm »

Spanner in the works, well kinda, but it's good news. I have been confirmed for a contract in Cape Town, with a very good likely hood of expanding it into my own business. I need the Sani so bad down there as the site is one big sand pit. 8km from the coast and virgin ground. Ground surveys have shown lose sand up to nearly a meter deep.

I'm hoping to get my goodies together to come back January, quit my job, and spend a week or three on the Sani to get it acceptable to take it back to Cape Town. But things are moving to fast for me. Another four houses have just been confirmed to go up in January alone, and I am not even sure if I am going to be able to come back to Gauteng.

In the meantime, I am putting everything onto the Sani that can bolt on. Anything that is not attached, will need to be transported down there later. The fuel tank will be put on hold for now. I am just strapping the old tank into the loadbin for now till I can to spend some time and money on it. It's just a bitch filling the tank inside the car. I went through 3 years of driving like that, and the wife managed to twice try and fill the tank from the normal filler, that just dumps onto the ground. The first time, the pump attendant managed to spill R300 worth of diesel that way, took her money, and a bystander came to her and told her she has a leak in the tank. Only then did she realise the mistake.

Anyhow, lets see how this all pans out over the next few months. Wish me luck.
David - Bfreesani
1997 Nissan Sani MK3 2.7TD - Hillbilly (SAFANI)
MQ C200 SFA
MQ H260 LSD Rear
MQ Transfer as second low range
5" Lift
33"x12.5x15" tires on 8.5J rims - Want 35's
DIY rock sliders
DIY Snorkel
Madman EMS
Post Reply

Return to “43. General Items/Services Wanted”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests