Am I being silly?
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Am I being silly?
Ok, so I all but almost decided on getting new suspension for my Patrol.
When measuring from the axle it seems that the current coils gave about a 75mm lift - although the left side has sagged 25mm.
Terrain tamer has a comfort coil (I'm looking for comfort) bit it only gives 40mm lift. The only other thing I want besides comfort is flex. Thus, does it make sense to do the following?
I put in the comfort coils, then put in a 25mm spacer on the shock tower, then put dampers on similar than what I have now to give me the current setups shock travel? The shock will then have 10mm more travel than the 40mm would of had? Does it make sense?
Am I being daft? Would the 40mm give me the same flex as the current 75mm? I'm thinking of when the wheel goes into the wheel well etc.
Is it worth the effort? As I would like to have a more comfortable gravel tourer, but retain the current flex?
When measuring from the axle it seems that the current coils gave about a 75mm lift - although the left side has sagged 25mm.
Terrain tamer has a comfort coil (I'm looking for comfort) bit it only gives 40mm lift. The only other thing I want besides comfort is flex. Thus, does it make sense to do the following?
I put in the comfort coils, then put in a 25mm spacer on the shock tower, then put dampers on similar than what I have now to give me the current setups shock travel? The shock will then have 10mm more travel than the 40mm would of had? Does it make sense?
Am I being daft? Would the 40mm give me the same flex as the current 75mm? I'm thinking of when the wheel goes into the wheel well etc.
Is it worth the effort? As I would like to have a more comfortable gravel tourer, but retain the current flex?
- TijmenvdS
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Re: Am I being silly?
From my current state of mind on the subject Coils are rarely the limit of flex because it travels more downward and limited by socks rather than upward limited by coil. This is concerning obstacles and slow driving.
Driving on gravel road and hitting a bump or pothole one would be more in need of the up travel limited by coil but 10mm is not going to matter at all, at speed it is better to cease braking before the pothole or bump as to allow the whole suspension to work because if you are braking while you are encountering the pothole or bump the vehicle is essentially nosediving and limiting travel.
If you are concerned about the vehicle height of ground I would motivate for the coils that give that lift but as I understand you want comfort and flex, I believe the 40mm comfort coil will fulfil that purposes.
I might be silly as well so curious what others will say
Driving on gravel road and hitting a bump or pothole one would be more in need of the up travel limited by coil but 10mm is not going to matter at all, at speed it is better to cease braking before the pothole or bump as to allow the whole suspension to work because if you are braking while you are encountering the pothole or bump the vehicle is essentially nosediving and limiting travel.
If you are concerned about the vehicle height of ground I would motivate for the coils that give that lift but as I understand you want comfort and flex, I believe the 40mm comfort coil will fulfil that purposes.
I might be silly as well so curious what others will say
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Re: Am I being silly?
This gets very tricky, because a shock on a 75mm lift is not necessarily 75mm longer than a standard one. Nor are they the same, brand for brand.
As Tiymen says, the primary limiting factor on flex is the shock. However, anti-sway bars, wheels rubbing and brake lines may also limit flex (and will usually break after a while as a result).
Coils may limit upwards flex but not downward.
My feeling is, check if the current coils would bottom out if the coils are removed (easiest starting poi t for this is to flex the car out and see how firmly the axle is in contact with the bump stop).
If the shocks are not limiting upwards flex, then either keep them or replace with something of the same spec, and replace the springs with terrain tamer.
Stay away from spacers if you can. If you can't deal with the slightly lower ride, you need to space both coil and bump stop, and this will cost you flex.
As Tiymen says, the primary limiting factor on flex is the shock. However, anti-sway bars, wheels rubbing and brake lines may also limit flex (and will usually break after a while as a result).
Coils may limit upwards flex but not downward.
My feeling is, check if the current coils would bottom out if the coils are removed (easiest starting poi t for this is to flex the car out and see how firmly the axle is in contact with the bump stop).
If the shocks are not limiting upwards flex, then either keep them or replace with something of the same spec, and replace the springs with terrain tamer.
Stay away from spacers if you can. If you can't deal with the slightly lower ride, you need to space both coil and bump stop, and this will cost you flex.
Mag ons ons kenniskry met lekkerkry aanhoukry.
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Re: Am I being silly?
Hi guys thanks for the replies.
I do understand that the shock limits flex, thus the want (not need) for longer (or same length as for cureent 75mm lift). And that coils go along way in ride comfort- hence the comfort coils (only 40mm lift). The car seems to be setup to handle the current flex with regards to brake lines etc. Thus I don't want more flex...I just don't want less.
I'm also not too stressed regarding ride height loss.
So, you don't think putting bolt in spacers to lift the shock tower a bit is a good idea? The full compression from the terrain tamer shock is 310mm (front) 397mm (rear) This would be safe to use with the coil setup. If I want to use a longer shock - it will probably then need to also compress only to that height. Thus stopping flex from the other end...thus negating its purpose. Eventhough it might have the potential to extend a lot more...
My coils unseat anyway, I'm busy fabricating drop outs - so the 40mm coil unseating is not a worry to me with a longer shock.
But it does seem I will not get more flex from a longer shock...because of the compression limit? What are the full extend and compression lengths (and bore) of the standard patrol shocks?
Is my reasoning correct?
Edit: Maybe if the 40mm coil can compress more than current (shorter bumpstops), and the shocks have the same max extension travel.
Eish, where are the headache tablets
I do understand that the shock limits flex, thus the want (not need) for longer (or same length as for cureent 75mm lift). And that coils go along way in ride comfort- hence the comfort coils (only 40mm lift). The car seems to be setup to handle the current flex with regards to brake lines etc. Thus I don't want more flex...I just don't want less.
I'm also not too stressed regarding ride height loss.
So, you don't think putting bolt in spacers to lift the shock tower a bit is a good idea? The full compression from the terrain tamer shock is 310mm (front) 397mm (rear) This would be safe to use with the coil setup. If I want to use a longer shock - it will probably then need to also compress only to that height. Thus stopping flex from the other end...thus negating its purpose. Eventhough it might have the potential to extend a lot more...
My coils unseat anyway, I'm busy fabricating drop outs - so the 40mm coil unseating is not a worry to me with a longer shock.
But it does seem I will not get more flex from a longer shock...because of the compression limit? What are the full extend and compression lengths (and bore) of the standard patrol shocks?
Is my reasoning correct?
Edit: Maybe if the 40mm coil can compress more than current (shorter bumpstops), and the shocks have the same max extension travel.
Eish, where are the headache tablets
- Tinus lotz
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Re: Am I being silly?
You have SJC 4.5 iam i correct ?
I iam very sure there is not a 75mm lift in there but i might be wrong ....take some measurements and lets see ...terrain taimer for the win there dude
I iam very sure there is not a 75mm lift in there but i might be wrong ....take some measurements and lets see ...terrain taimer for the win there dude
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Re: Am I being silly?
Unfortunately I have not done the full exercise to determine exactly what is possible at the rear. Thus far I have concentrated on the front end.
However, according to the manual (Y60 though), the standard shocks are 619mm extended and have a stroke of 234mm. Thus 385mm compressed length.
I suspect your current 397 are probably safe with the standard bump stops, but I also don't think you should go any longer unless you increase the bump stop height.
So now it gets complicated. You probably know all this already, but different shock constructions allow different stroke lengths for any given compressed length. On a standard-type mono-tube shock, you need room for the one end ring (half a ring at the top and half a ring at the bottom), the bottom end cap and it's seals, the piston, possibly the nut or retainer that attaches the piston to the shaft, the divider (between oil and expandable medium, whether air, nitrogen or foam) and the top cap.
On a dual-tube shock, the expandable medium moves out of the tube to be around the main tube, inside a secondary tube. With a foam-cell shock, (where foam is the expandable medium), one does not need a divider. Therefore, a dual-tube shock can achieve a longer stroke than a conventional mono-tube for the same compressed length. Of course, a you can place the divider and the expandable medium in a separate external canister, thus making the mono-tube the equal of a dual-tube (in terms of stroke anyway).
Also, there is no guarantee that any given shock is built to maximize the stroke within the given dimensions...
But in general, if you lengthen the shock by 10mm in the compressed dimension, then the stroke should also increase by 10mm, making the extended length 20mm longer.
So by putting in longer shocks, you do gain flex, but you may lose compression.
Thus, if you want to install shocks that are longer than 397/400mm compressed, then you need to also add coil spacers (or longer coils) and longer bump-stops (or spacers under the bump stops). This will raise your ride height and center of gravity, but you will gain more flex.
Hope that makes some sense?
However, according to the manual (Y60 though), the standard shocks are 619mm extended and have a stroke of 234mm. Thus 385mm compressed length.
I suspect your current 397 are probably safe with the standard bump stops, but I also don't think you should go any longer unless you increase the bump stop height.
So now it gets complicated. You probably know all this already, but different shock constructions allow different stroke lengths for any given compressed length. On a standard-type mono-tube shock, you need room for the one end ring (half a ring at the top and half a ring at the bottom), the bottom end cap and it's seals, the piston, possibly the nut or retainer that attaches the piston to the shaft, the divider (between oil and expandable medium, whether air, nitrogen or foam) and the top cap.
On a dual-tube shock, the expandable medium moves out of the tube to be around the main tube, inside a secondary tube. With a foam-cell shock, (where foam is the expandable medium), one does not need a divider. Therefore, a dual-tube shock can achieve a longer stroke than a conventional mono-tube for the same compressed length. Of course, a you can place the divider and the expandable medium in a separate external canister, thus making the mono-tube the equal of a dual-tube (in terms of stroke anyway).
Also, there is no guarantee that any given shock is built to maximize the stroke within the given dimensions...
But in general, if you lengthen the shock by 10mm in the compressed dimension, then the stroke should also increase by 10mm, making the extended length 20mm longer.
So by putting in longer shocks, you do gain flex, but you may lose compression.
Thus, if you want to install shocks that are longer than 397/400mm compressed, then you need to also add coil spacers (or longer coils) and longer bump-stops (or spacers under the bump stops). This will raise your ride height and center of gravity, but you will gain more flex.
Hope that makes some sense?
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Re: Am I being silly?
Yes I do.Tinus lotz wrote: ↑16 Jul 2019 16:49 You have SJC 4.5 iam i correct ?
I iam very sure there is not a 75mm lift in there but i might be wrong ....take some measurements and lets see ...terrain taimer for the win there dude
Between the axle and the bumpstop on right of the vehicle it measured 165mm and left 155mm - normal should be 100mm. And due to my coils de-seating, left more though, thus probably sagged I'm sure it is more than 50mm lift. The right "sagged" coil is at 65mm. It is weird that it's the right coil thats higher as it has the most weight that side...But yes, I do agree that I'm not 100% sure of the 3".
Anyway, yes thanks Peter - it makes sense - and maybe one must always go back to the KISS principle.
I will flex the Patrol out this weekend and measure the shock stroke (I'm unable to find a code that means anything on the rear shocks). I will also measure the distance from the axle to the bumpstop compressed and extended. This will probably give me the best indication of what I have and what I need to get to keep it.
Hopefully this will answer my question that I can't get a straight answer for. Will the 40mm give me the same flex as a ~65mm.
I also don't want to put spacers on the coils etc.
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Re: Am I being silly?
I just re-read my last post. I do sound like an ungrateful bugger. I do appreciate the input and advice greatly guys.
What I meant with the KiSS is that when I have the measurements, I will look at a complete kit that gives me the closest to what I want. Instead of trying to match different components from different places that haven't had R&D testing done.
So the verdict seems that I was being silly...thus far
What I meant with the KiSS is that when I have the measurements, I will look at a complete kit that gives me the closest to what I want. Instead of trying to match different components from different places that haven't had R&D testing done.
So the verdict seems that I was being silly...thus far
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