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Re: Opinion of what she is worth

Posted: 13 Sep 2017 06:02
by Peter Connan
I think you are not comparing apples with apples. You are comparing high-pressure turbo-charging with low-pressure supercharging. Also, I think some of the ifo you quote is a little out of date.

The need (or not) to change engine internals is purely a factor of the inlet pressure (actually of the BMEP, but in the same engine, that is directly related to the inlet pressure and temperature), and has nothing to do with how that pressure is generated.

Thus, if you limit the boost to the same 0.3 bar that the supercharger generates, then the standard engine internals are fine.

I agree that a turbo probably requires more control, but that is simply because it can generate far higher pressures than the supercharger. Choosing a smaller turbo will reduce those issues, and spool up faster, thus reducing the lag you are concerned about.

Furthemore, there have for many years been systems designed to protect turbos against the removal of oil pressure while the turbo is still spinning.

I firmly believe it is possible to do everything you want to achieve with a turbo, and more to boot, and I am also sure that virtually every single OEM that was using superchargers before have moved to turbo now. But, there probably isn't a local fully-developed turbo conversion which carries a full engine replacement type warranty.

Re: Opinion of what she is worth

Posted: 13 Sep 2017 10:58
by Peter Connan
Sorry, i do want to add one more comment:

It seems to me that what you are looking for is almost exactly what Michael's TDI's deliver.

Perhaps you should just take a spin in Michael's car before you spend any cash...

Re: Opinion of what she is worth

Posted: 13 Sep 2017 13:40
by Mystical_Beast
Peter its great having your technical knowledge shared here on the forum.
It forces me to think more clearly about the implications, options and gives a better understanding of the technical workings of the two systems
And so I understand that 0.3 bar forced induction is whatever it is regardless of the means used creating it.
The argument however is which will be deemed more reliable and overall better performance range.

Patrol Turbo Conversion are awesome, I just don’t know who could do it successfully and back it up with warranty, for this reason I am inclined to go Super Charged.

For those that love the Turbo route I leave you this






Re: Opinion of what she is worth

Posted: 13 Sep 2017 17:52
by Peter Connan
Julian, this post is not intended to influence your decision, as I think your mind is made up, and I suspect you are correct in your main concern that there is nobody locally who has a fully-developed turbo solution which comes with the type of warranty you are looking for. This is by way of being a bit of a ramble.

Once again, I would not do either of these modifications to my own Patrol. I still believe that, if you want a race car, buy a race car, and secondly, in an overland vehicle, reliability is the primary concern. And as far as I am concerned, the moment you put a different computer in it than what it came out the factory with, that's out the window.
But anyway...

I believe a supercharger plays to the strengths of a diesel engine. Low-down torque, not top-end power. Looking at the torque curves posted earlier, this is true of this particular supercharger conversion. I believe (but have no proof to back it up) that this supercharger's capacity is not high enough to create the same pressures at higher RPM that it does in the mid range. And using a bigger one will lose you a lot of the bottom-end advantages.

I therefore believe that you can make substantially more power AT THE SAME MAXIMUM BOOST with a well-thought-out turbo conversion.
I further believe that, by using modern technology, you could do a turbo conversion that will blow that supercharger out of the water right through the rev range. And I suspect it could still be done cheaper than the supercharger, but it will cost a lot to develop. Since most of the cost in a turbo conversion is not in the turbo itself but in the plumbing and so forth, twin turbos (small and large) will not add that much to the cost of such a conversion.

And finally, there are a variety of anti-lag systems available nowadays, that could literally create boost at zero RPM. Difficult to control, I grant you, but there it is. I just think the turbocharger has so much more potential...

Re: Opinion of what she is worth

Posted: 12 Dec 2017 20:24
by Mystical_Beast
Well, I went with what I believe is the right option.

I maintain Turbo for Diesels and Super-chargers for Petrol.

I'm very happy, unfortunately with the wind and the rain over the weekend I couldn't test to see if I achieved a fuel consumption gain.
The Patrol is undeniably more drive-able, rather than being cumbersome and weighty.
I have a fairly conservative map just to let things settle and will remap in the new year.

Current figures are 685 NM of torque and 226 wheel kilowatts. That's a whole 100 more than I had before.
The beauty of the the super-charger is its linear power delivery so wherever you want to be, its happy.
I hit the speed limiter (200 indicated) in 4th and 5th a number of times, without wanting too, the limiter will be removed in the new year and I want to install some gauges for oil temp, oil pressure and water temp, so that I can monitor those as an indication of what is happening under the hood.

My experience is that the additional power available keeps the torque converter locker up at lower speeds, so for example at 120, up a hill, it will stay locked up which I prefer.

I kept the exhaust system I have to reduce costs, which I believe may be the reason I've lost around 8 kw at the top, but nothing you'd notice anyway.

The reality is the Patrol will take any hill you can throw at it and by the time you get to the top you'll be doing close to 200, alternatively will hold whatever speed you were doing to start with, irrespective.

In my opinion worth every cent.

Re: Opinion of what she is worth

Posted: 12 Dec 2017 20:32
by Mystical_Beast
My final take, is this, if one considers the relative low entry price into a second hand Patrol, 4.8 specifically, to spend a bit on this conversion gives you the ultimate SUV.
With the conversion you exceed the Y62 performance figures whilst retaining what’s good on the Y61.
And you are still within budget compared to similar Toyota.
Driven reasonably, I don’t believe reliability is compromised at all.
Obviously pushing it to the limit all the time will, but then it is no longer necessary.
I needed to drive the Patrol far harder before, its effortless now.

Love it.

Re: Opinion of what she is worth

Posted: 12 Dec 2017 20:43
by JoshJ
Wow. Sounds amazing. What dit all this cost if my ask?
I met Faan with his super charger a month or 2 ago.
Hope you have many happy kilos.

Re: Opinion of what she is worth

Posted: 12 Dec 2017 20:50
by Mystical_Beast
Thank you

It was around the figure I mention in earlier posts.

I'm not sure what the actual cost would be as I was done a bit of a favour around pricing

Re: Opinion of what she is worth

Posted: 12 Dec 2017 20:52
by Mystical_Beast
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Re: Opinion of what she is worth

Posted: 12 Dec 2017 21:11
by hugejp
Lovely!!!